How John Patrick Mullin Closed a $11M Round for MANTRA (John Patrick Mullin / MANTRA)

[00:00:00]

JP Mullin: if I have to give advice for anyone who's going to launch a token, as part of a capital raise or, you know, part of their business model, like take that really, really seriously.

Cause you're effectively going public from the minute you launch it.

Jason Yeh: What would you do if your big idea required you to convince investors to bet on an entirely new way of doing something at a time when the rest of the market hated your industry? For JV Mullen co-founder of mantra that wasn't just a hypothetical. It was the reality of building a platform designed to bring real-world asset tokenization to the blockchain. In the middle of a market downturn when most people were stepping back from crypto. JP was leaning all the way in. [00:01:00] Betting that real-world asset tokenization would be the next big thing in web three.

Raising capital for something.

This ambitious is never simple. But it's especially difficult if your company is in web three and it's a crypto winter. Investors were skeptical. The market was uncertain and yet JP managed to land an $11 million fundraise led by Shahrukh partners.

Today we dig into what it took to convince investors, how JP tackled the unique challenges of token and equity fundraising. And the lessons he's learned, scaling mantra, and one of the most volatile markets out there.

But before we get to all of that, I wanted to jump into JPS early years or a series of pivotal events. I sat him on a path to building something big.

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JP Mullin: So, I think when I was younger, I was a pretty outgoing, like, super sports driven, very athletic. Just [00:02:00] kind of like, I was friends with everyone, like, good student. Um, But I was not, I wasn't like, uh, like until later on, I didn't really ever have to try in school to be completely honest.

Um, I just kind of like coasted and it was, it was easy. Um, but super, super adventurous. I mean, I was always into like nature shows and like, I remember when we would travel a little bit, but like when I was younger, we'd travel just in the U S I don't think I left the U S until I was maybe middle school or something like that.

Um, Which is still maybe early for some, but, uh, but anyway, um, we went down to Epcot and Disney world in Florida. And, um, and I remember like, that was my favorite part of the, of the, of all of Disney world was like all these like different countries that I could go to. And then, and that was where I had like sushi for the first time.

And that's where I had,

Jason Yeh: at

Disney

JP Mullin: know, all these different cuisines. Yeah. But like for a kid from Cincinnati, Ohio at like 12 years old, that was [00:03:00] weird, you know, um, and I always really liked. Different countries, exploring different things. And I think really early on, I just lived in a bigger world from that perspective.

Um, I always just kind of did my own thing. Um, and I think people recognize that I did my own thing in a very genuine way. And, um, so it wasn't like it was forced. So I was, I tended to be a little bit more like, I don't wanna say like trendsetter, but like, I was into stuff that people thought was weird.

That then eventually became kind of cool. Cool. Um, like music and like, you know, I was always in high school, it's always like I was always wearing like strange outfits and had like crazy clothes, like weird haircuts and like all kinds

Jason Yeh: Where do you

think that came from? Um, you know, were your parents, um, were your parents kind of out there, um, were they entrepreneurs?

JP Mullin: was in the Marine Corps. My dad was in the Marine Corps. My mom was a, [00:04:00] you know, a Midwestern stay at home mom. She worked a little bit, but I'm like very normal. Like. Mid

Jason Yeh: Straight laced as they come.

JP Mullin: Yeah. I mean, they were always super supportive of me and my sister. I had an older sister. Um, she was like my dad, he was in the Marine Corps, but he was also in like banking, so, um, so like, you know, had a, had a, a bit more of like that kind of like finance job as well.

Um, but she was into like acting and theater and super creative and, and, um, we just both kind of, you You know, we're able to do what we wanted to do within, you know, within reason, but like, we're able to follow our own path. And, you know, we had some rigidity to like, I remember I was never able to quit anything until I finished.

At least the season or I finished something, you know, I was at the follow through, which I think was important. Um, but, uh, it wasn't like they were like, you can't do this or you can't do that. Um, they, you need to do this or whatever. [00:05:00] They kind of let us figure, figure our own self out, which I think was, you know, great.

Jason Yeh: Yeah. So with that sort of supportive structure, background in the Marine Corps, it sounded like you went through sports,

but you did, you know, kind of what you wanted to do. You did it on your own terms. Coming in through high school and maybe looking out through college and beyond, do you remember having a vision for what you would be spending time on, where your career would might go, or did you kind of just float with the wind?

JP Mullin: Yeah, definitely did. Um, so up until, and I had some like kind of very Traumatic isn't the word, but very like specific moments in time or life that like really shifted a lot for me. So in high school, I mean, I was really, really into sports. I mean, like I was going to play probably division one lacrosse, um, on scholarship, uh, maybe even football, to be honest.

Um, but I ended up getting like, I think my seventh or eighth or ninth concussion in football, like right around [00:06:00] the time when like CTE was becoming a thing. So it was like, you know, really a big issue and, and um, I got that in my senior year of high school, like the second game of football. And I had been like all city the year before, coming out of basically nowhere because I'd changed schools.

But, um, pretty much that changed everything. So I couldn't ever play like contact sports again. So I like had this kind of really, I would actually say back then it was quite a traumatic thing, although I didn't really realize it. Um, cause you know, being a 17 year old kid whose whole life revolved around, you know, athletics and then.

Like that shifted everything and I couldn't do it anymore. And it wasn't like I had like a, you know, a knee injury where you could see it. I had like a brain injury. So, um, That was a pretty interesting thing. I remember I had like a headache for like months, just constant and like probably a little bit depressed, but I didn't realize it.

Um, I'm just not that kind of person. I'm a very optimistic person. Um, so anyway, that had a big shift and that kind of like ended up making me [00:07:00] go. Um, Into a little bit of a different path that I may not have gone down. Um, I ended up going to school in Madrid in Spain. So like I had a buddy from, from, uh, from my previous high school who was from Spain.

Um, his dad worked at Procter and Gamble. So that's how I got to like meet him, uh, back in Cincinnati, Ohio. And I went to visit him one summer and I was like, this is like the best place ever. So I started looking once I, you know, once I couldn't do athletics and sports anymore, I was like, okay, well, I'm Why don't I just go to Europe?

I, I'd rather go over there. Um, looks a lot, it looks more fun than what I'm doing

here. So I ended up finding that I could go to American university in, in Europe, in Spain, in Madrid. Um, and I wanted to study international business. I didn't really know exactly what that meant, but like my dad was in finance.

So I was like, okay, finance, business, banking, you know, whatever, I'll figure something out. So that was like the trajectory. I didn't, I didn't really think about entrepreneurship really. I always wanted to be like, I always wanted to be like. A people [00:08:00] manager or, you know, boss or however you want to think about it in that context, just cause that's what my dad did.

Um, and I, I kind of gravitated toward that

Jason Yeh: You're probably captain of some teams. Um,

you, you're, you know, you were, uh, you're saying a few things that portends an interesting future, right? You said, you talked a little bit about, uh, always kind of, Following the beat of your own drum, if you will, uh, doing things in your own terms, doing things that weren't super popular.

And then you mentioned, you know, super optimistic person, right? These are all kind of

leading yourself to being able to work in an

industry that we'll talk about in the future. There's, there's one question that I like asking founders in this part of the, the conversation, which has almost dual meaning for you, but do you remember what your relationship with money was like growing up?

Like where, you know, was it weird to ask for it? What was it? You know, did you always feel like you needed it? Um, what was that

JP Mullin: Um, that's a, that's a very good question. Um,

I was [00:09:00] always like the, I think I always wanted. I didn't really care about money, money per se, but I did always want the new shiny, like the shiny new thing. And honestly, that just is like, I think kind of unpacking that later on in life. Um, like working with my, with one of the coaches that I work with, Celine, um, from Mashari Method.

Like I am hyper, hyper achiever and like, it's always kind of like, what's next. So I think that translates into like tech and gadgets. I've always been into tech. So. You know, always want the new phone, the new iPhone or always, even if it's ridiculous, I get a new iPhone every year. Um, which is kind of ridiculous, um,

Jason Yeh: You mean, you

mean you don't have

JP Mullin: stuff like that.

Jason Yeh: iPhone mini? You don't have an iPhone

mini?

JP Mullin: no, I definitely do not.

Jason Yeh: Knowing JP, my old relic.

JP Mullin: um, so like, I think from that perspective, like that's kind of been one thing I never really had, it's never really been the motivator and, you know, I think, [00:10:00] you know, kind of translating particularly into, you know, Um, now, I mean, I, like being in crypto from a fairly early age, um, being entrepreneur, fairly early age, um, I actually made a lot of money and lost a lot of money twice, like before I was 30.

I mean, millions, both times. Um, and I was really no. Happier when I had a lot of money than when I didn't. Um, I mean, I think it's just, for me, it's a fact of like, can I be comfortable? And does it give me the ability to be more efficient with my time? Um, and if that, if those two things are ticked and like, sure.

I'm like, like, you look at the background here. I'm like, definitely I collect things, right? I like to, like, I have little objects and I'm like, you know, those types of things. But it's not like what drives me to like work hard. I would work hard regardless. Um, and I would do what I'm doing regardless, just cause I like, enjoy.

Job and I enjoy my, my, the thing that I'm working on.

Jason Yeh: Okay. So the relationship with money is, is [00:11:00] an interesting one. Um, especially because as we'll find out and we can kind of fast forward, you, I think you go into more of a standard career before shifting over to being pretty early on in crypto. Um, so crypto was a space that from what I could tell in your, in your bio and background. You were dabbling in, you were spending time in. I want to fast forward though to the start of Mantra, right? Your current company, um, a company who you recently announced an 11 million raise for. And the timing of what you were doing is like fascinating to me. Um, like I don't think your timing really lined up with some of the like easier times to be in market. Um, and the thing that's even more fascinating for me. And I think a lot of the listeners have funded are that crypto dynamics are slightly different than sort of high growth technology startup [00:12:00] dynamics. So what I'd love to talk a little bit about is maybe the starting point of Mantra from the perspective of what is this a company that you're building?

And when you think about building a crypto native DeFi platform, is there an idea of, is there even a concept of bootstrapping in this space? Or are there dynamics around that, that like make it impossible to bootstrap? Um, and so maybe you can start quickly with 30 seconds on your description of what Mantra is, especially in the beginning. And then tell us a little bit

about that initial thought of how do I capitalize this company?

JP Mullin: So I think it's funny cause you know, we started, we're not started, but we were kind of going through the race process as we were doing fundraiser conference together. So you really got to see it firsthand. And it was, it was interesting to see how like some of the lessons that we were learning from, or I was learning from that, from that process, from you, like really just translated into real life, like immediately.

And like, it just coincided that. It all came together at the [00:13:00] same time, which was kind of cool. Um, I would say that, you know, mantra in the last, you know, six months, pretty much since we've kind of got to know each other has undergone like dramatic change, um, incredible, incredible growth. Um, and just kind of like, it's been probably the craziest six months of my life.

Um, shifting constantly, we're hiring like crazy, we're raising more money. Um, it's a, it's a pretty insane time. Um, but the way that I describe mantra now, actually it's, it's interesting because The business itself is very different if you look at it from like, the traditional lens of like, okay, what's the equity company mantra mean?

Or if you look at it from like, the crypto side. And if you look at it from the crypto side, mantra is just a, you know, layer one blockchain solution, focused on tokenization. So bringing real world assets on chain. Um, But if you come through it from like an equity lens, it's a very different thing. It's like a diversified group with different types of products and like, you know, [00:14:00] licensing and a bunch of different things.

So that's definitely one thing I think maybe it's interesting to unpack here just because when you're talking to investors, I'm, I'm selling tokens. Like that's the round that we're doing today as a very, very different pitch and a very, very different deal than what I was doing when we got to know each other a few months back, which was equity group level.

how does this all work? What's the big bit, you know, very different game.

Jason Yeh: Let's,

let's not, let's not rush through that actually. I think this is kind of where I want to spend a lot of time. So, um, we can talk a little bit, let's focus on this, this actually this 11 million raise that you announced. Um, It's uh, and I'll tell you what I believe and like the fundamentals that I understand within companies, which is like, uh, describe the company, describe the problem that you're solving. Um, describe it as a really big opportunity because venture capitalists need to see, you know, between a 10 and a hundred X, especially at the earliest stages. And then [00:15:00] describe your team as being the ones that can actually get it done. Overly simplified, but that's exactly what we think about happening. And I'll say this. When you were going out to raise end of 2023, like when you were like, put it, pulling that together, it might've been one of the crappier times to be fundraising

JP Mullin: for

Jason Yeh: for any company, but crypto was

not, was not doing well. Um,

JP Mullin: for sure.

Jason Yeh: now you're saying you went out to raise for that, but then there's another layer on top of it, which is. So tokens, which are ascribed some sort of value, and maybe you

can take it from here. Maybe I can pass it to you and you do your best to describe. So what is it that when you fundraise for a token, what are you promising or what are you trying to tell the investor? That you're going to be able to do and why,

JP Mullin: Sure. Um, so I think [00:16:00] in our case, um, our, you know, our token is representative of, you know, a, you know, a layer one blockchain network. So like similar to, I mean, we're not trying to be Ethereum. We're not trying to be Solana or any of these big guys. We're, we have a specific use case for our chain, which is asset tokenization.

Um, but it's effectively the same. You know, paying gas or transactions and you've, you've subscribed some sort of value accrual back to, um, the token via this, like the more value that comes onto the network, the more usage of the token, the more apps are built on top of it, you know, there's this idea of like this fat protocol thesis, whether that's, you know, Legitimate or not.

Um, that's kind of the idea. So like,

Jason Yeh: assuming that funded listeners are, are less crypto native than others,

let's just, let's just describe a couple of things, um, specifically. So layer one blockchain, as in. Built on top of the main sort of blue chip protocols.

JP Mullin: no. So it's like a base layer, um, infrastructure. [00:17:00] So like things build on top of us. And I think that's actually a very important thing because like, particularly when markets are not as good for fundraising, at least in crypto, but also probably in, uh, I mean, probably in, in, in just traditional VC too, or traditional tech, um, like they go to B2B plays and VCs go to B2B plays and they enterprise and they go to, uh, infrastructure.

And that's basically in the crypto translation, like that is a layer one.

Um, things are built on top of it. It's a bit

Jason Yeh: alternative to, Ethereum then.

JP Mullin: exactly.

Jason Yeh: Great. Okay. So you're an alternative to Ethereum and, and you talked about this concept of, um, cause I'm trying to overly simplify this. You are telling the market that there is going to be demand for your token, right?

And you're trying to explain the mechanics around why there's demand for the token, right?

Uh, what, what are, what is drawing people to want to use your token? And what is the story that you're [00:18:00] telling people?

JP Mullin: For sure. So, um, you know, honestly, uh, a lot of the reason people buy tokens is just pure speculation. Um, you know, yeah. Um, you know, I think people, people expect that in five, 10, 20 years, The crypto industry tokens in general will be more valuable, but there'll be more ubiquitous. There'll be more widespread and people are placing bets on projects that they think will be there that are going to accrue some of that value, whether it's through the general market growth or due to the delivery and execution of whatever promise you're making or whatever, you know, your, your narrative is.

And in our case, I mean, our thesis has been this for a long time, but our idea is that we want to bring traditional assets, different types of products on chain that currently don't live on a, you know, decentralized or semi decentralized blockchain [00:19:00] network or ledger, um, increasing accessibility, increasing, increasing, like fairness and equity across people being able to interact with these types of products that may not have been able to access before.

Um, and this is kind of. Like the thesis that people are talking about right now. That's really hot narrative wise is called RWA real world asset. So we are effectively the number one real world asset blockchain right now. Um, that's specifically geared towards this. Um, there's other general purpose chains like an Ethereum or a Solana.

Um, but we're like. A little bit niche, even though our niche is like the entire finance industry. And they're like, it's the big niche. Um, so people are basically saying, okay, asset tokenization is a thing. The technology is here. They're a first mover. They're uniquely positioned. And, you know, if you look at just like we're, we have a public token.

So there's like an actual, like the market actually prices us. Um, I think today, you know, I think I'm fully diluted market cap is like. You know, 650 million or something like that. [00:20:00] Um, but the, like, we're actually expanding the supply. So it'd actually be closer to like 1. 3 billion and later this year. Um, if you know, all things stay the same.

Um, but basically what, what people are investing in is they're saying, okay, today, like, you know, we're in the top 150 coins in the market. You know, they're expecting that if we continue to execute on this vision. We can maybe be top 20 top, you know, 50. So they're kind of like, it's almost like a relative value trade, which, where you have that ability to look at comparables because of the public market, right?

So you can say, okay, this is the next, you know, Ethereum or whatever, a little bit different when it comes to applications, because there's just less comparables in the market. It's more like, know,

Jason Yeh: I'm going to pause you there because I want to make sure Certain people are, are sort of following us in lockstep. Again, the reason I was very excited to do this is because I think there are a lot of people in technology, um, in our ecosystem that haven't been exposed to these dynamics. And they kind of only know the [00:21:00] idea of like, I have some money on Coinbase, certain things are going up. When you describe raising capital for your token, And you, and I, again, really appreciate the transparency and honesty where you're like, well, what are people betting on? And you're like, I think it's safe to say that a lot of people are speculating. What are they betting on? They're betting on the fact that they believe it'll go up, right?

They believe that the value will

go up. And I think a lot

of people outside of crypto can be like, Oh my God, that's, that's why it's like that. It's like such a bad fake industry. People are just like

stealing money from people. But you know what dynamic, you know what market that exists in as well? That exact same dynamic is the NASDAQ, right?

Is

the New York Stock

Exchange. When there is a public liquid market, these movements, you get movements, right? They, they, one movement pushes the movement and it keeps going. And you know, the thing to consider [00:22:00] there first is there is a one to one correlation between public markets where public market equities. Which are representative of corporations are driven by similar dynamics, right? And you aren't going to the market saying that there is a fundamental value of what you're trying to produce, but you're also open with the fact that by the way, part of this dynamic is pure speculation so that if

people can believe. that we're able to push the price of the market, uh, price of the token up. Then that will get more people to be interested in actually buying the token, which with a limited supply, supply and demand, will also

continue to push the price of the token.

JP Mullin: 100%.

Jason Yeh: I leave this, I did want to tie it back to the space that I'm, you know, more deeply aware of and the stuff that we usually talk about, which is private market fundraising and dynamics

there. And while very, very different, [00:23:00] same dynamic exists there, just at slower

speeds, right? Because

if you think about it. A lot of, especially in the hottest markets, but in almost every market, we are betting on some kind of future. We are, we are saying, can Mantra be the next conglomerate DeFi protocol, whatever, and be the

thing that continues to print cashflow from operations.

But if I'm investing in you at the seed, JP, I'm hoping that at the A somebody will price it up, right? Like that we're investing now because we think it will be higher later.

And so I just want everyone to kind of call a spade a spade. Be aware that in any sort of market dynamic, we're all playing a similar game.

And it's good to hear a little bit

about how this worked out.

Um, so let's talk about, uh, some specific dynamics and, and maybe we can talk about, you know, stories and how it all worked out. But, you know, you're going out [00:24:00] to raise the end of 2023, beginning of 2024. I looked at the Bitcoin charts, like we're sitting at something like 60 some right now, and in early 2023, we were in the thirties.

So like a very different market. Um,

tell me a little bit about what you learned going out to fundraise for Mantra then. And you know, some of the stories about, again, we're trying to, whether or not you're raising for equity, you know, that's the side of the world that I know, or you're raising for tokens, you're telling a story, right?

And

we're at a place in the market where people maybe are not ready to hear these kind of stories. So tell me a little bit about what that felt like.

Hearing JP talk about selling equity versus tokens, highlights a lesson. I think a lot of founders miss your story needs to adapt to your audience. Investors, whether they're buying equity or tokens, want to know, you've got a clear path to value that never changes. [00:25:00] After the break, JP shares how the focus on storytelling helped mantra locking their $11 million raise led by Shahrukh partners.

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[00:26:00]

JP Mullin: Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, we actually started looking to raise equity back, like, Probably spring, summer ish 2022. Um, and that was even worse time. I mean, I legitimately was, I remember being in New York City in our general counsel's apartment that he was renting there cause we were kind of stuck out of Hong Kong.

Um, and we were like working on the deck and like Luna, which is obviously like one of the big, you know, shit shows of the last cycle was imploding. Like literally as we're working on the deck and then obviously everything else that unwound from that, you know, you had three [00:27:00] arrows, a big hedge fund that blew up, you had FTX, which was, you know, blew up massively.

You had all these things that kind of like really put a damper on the, on the space and, you know, people didn't think it was going to come back. I mean, I knew it was, I've been through multiple cycles. I'm like, you know, this happens every time it'll be, it'll be back. You just got to kind of survive. Um, and, uh, you know, anytime we were starting to get a little bit of traction, Things started to kind of tail off a little bit after Luna and we're getting some traction and then boom, then FTX happens.

We're like, Oh, great. So it was a, it was a struggle. I mean, we had to, you know, restructure. We had to, I mean, I didn't like, I didn't take pay or I put a bunch of money in the business myself, actually, for, you know, nearly two years, um, just to kind of get through. And it was not easy. I mean, like fortunately towards the end of it, it started to kind of like tail off a bit.

Um, and you know, we were like, I kind of making progress, but we're never to ever like generate that FOMO with a big lead. Everyone's like, Oh yeah, wait for lead, wait for lead, wait for [00:28:00] lead. And finally we're able to get like the semblance of a term sheet, but it took longer than, you know, what we're expecting.

And it wasn't like as much as we wanted. Um, and then as we kind of got to know, like literally as I'm going through the fundraiser, the confidence program with you and the team, um, you know, all these conversations start happening about. Like, Hey, we're, you know, we're interested in what your guys are doing.

And it was just kind of like almost circumstance. It was really like serendipitous. And we ended up basically meeting our current lead investor, um, because they were looking for a real world asset blockchain and they actually wanted to like. Basically take over our token that was listed on Binance before.

Um, just to do that project. And I was like, well, why would you take it over? Like we have a team, we've been building this already. Like let's just join forces. And it ended up being like a match made in heaven. We work together great. They're like amazing partners, super, super institutional capital.

So it really like, it felt like it all just came together like, you know, perfectly, but it was really a long, long, long struggle. Um, [00:29:00] and even at the end, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't easy during the final process to get it across the line. Anyway, I mean, there was like a substantial amount of due diligence because this fund is backed by like nine sovereign wealth funds.

So they have to go through the, you know, the really, really kind of deep dive on things, um, which isn't easy for a crypto company to do, um, in general, cause it's a little bit complex.

Jason Yeh: Yeah.

JP Mullin: and, uh, you know, we're like, I think they gave a, as much as excited as they were about, like myself, the team, the opportunity, like they also understand that we're probably the biggest risk in their portfolio from a non crypto native VC investing into a crypto company.

Um, and that is like, not something that they take lightly. Right. Cause that could blow up their entire. Like

Jason Yeh: Well, let me, let me jump into this because like, this is a really interesting part of the story. You're a crypto native company, your lead investor in your series A, you just described as non crypto native. So I think one of the interesting things maybe to [00:30:00] share is. How did you even get the initial contact point there?

Like, what was the intro? Um, it was a complete, I mean, I think you yada, yada, yada over it a little bit, but like,

it couldn't have been like completely random. And I think people hearing how

this all coalesced, um, should be at least directionally inspirational.

JP Mullin: Absolutely. Well, hopefully, I mean, so we, um, we'd actually talked to the fund. So there's like, there's a, the fund, the main fund, which is called Shorooq partners. Um, they're like web, I call them web 2. 5 now. Um, then there was a fund of funds called three point, which is kind of like meant to be the crypto arm of.

Of Shorooq, because obviously Shorooq has like all these sovereigns on the cap of the LP cap table. So they kind of like hived off a crypto fund in the beginning, just to like get some exposure without the LPs being like, you know, what the heck? It's kind of like, if it goes bad, they can just cut it, um, kind of thing.

And we had actually [00:31:00] pitched them like 18 months previously and they passed. Um, or just, yeah, I mean, they didn't really pass pass, but they were just like, meh, okay. Um, and then ended up, um, Basically being that we got introduced from a friend of mine who I've known for a long time, um, who happens to be someone I play fantasy football with, but I've known him for, you know, I've known him for, for, for amenities in the space.

We do like, he does OTC broking. And, um, he was like, you guys should talk to these guys. They're looking for a Binance listed. You know, token, low cap, whatever. And we had had a couple of different offers coming through that actually ended up having to know each other. It was really strange. We had like all these offers coming to buy us out.

And I'm like, I'm not really looking to sell right now. Um, I kind of want to keep doing this, but I'll definitely, you know, hear it out. And, um, we kind of got on the call and it's funny because at first they kind of like brushed us off a little bit, just cause for whatever reason, not even brushed us off, just like didn't respond immediately, but I followed up and said.

Like, Hey, we have another offer here. Just [00:32:00] FYI, if you want to let these guys know that. They're not the only game in town. Great. And that was like a little bit of, you know, like try to get some competing forces at play. And they got right back to the table, got on a call. And it was literally just like, I met with the, with the partner Kunal.

Um, and just, I mean, I remember him saying something like, wow, this is great. You're exactly what I was looking for. Um, this is perfect. And, uh, or something of that, of that line. And, you know, honestly, it's been just like I Like I said, it's just been a match made in heaven. I mean, not just with the fund, but with the people involved, like they've been super supportive, really, really, um, great for like my learning and maturation as a founder.

So it's been just like a really, really, incredible experience, honestly.

Jason Yeh: Now, the, the, um, the thing that I want to point out here is like, I think you kind of overlook how important that story is, um, because people will look at your crunch space pro you know, profile and mantra 11 million series a, and it just feel like it all [00:33:00] worked out and even part of the

story, but but the lead up to it is that you pitched an affiliated firm. Or that firm, something in that ecosystem 18 months prior, and they passed. And I think this is one of those things that I really underline for a lot of founders that, is that in many cases, these relationships take time, right? These relationships and these like, data points that allow an investor to say like, we kind of know the, this team, we know JP, we, we heard about them 18 months ago, and the things that

they said they were going to do, we weren't ready then, we passed them, but the things that they said they were going to do in, you know, the, In the like, bear market, the, the sort of worst time and they kept building and now they've come out the other side.

We, we, they're actually legit. They

say what they are going to do and they actually did it.

And so when you actually get back to them through another warm connection, right, Adding on to the social proofing. It's just a number [00:34:00] of things that people can point to because at the end of the day, JP, it's like, you're telling them a story.

Remember we just said, you're, you're telling them a story and there isn't a lot that they can do to say with a hundred percent certainty, they are going to be this. The best they can

do is, is use the data points they have, which are things, you know, the relationship that they built with you before, um, other vectors and other pieces of credibility, other social proofing.

And so, yeah, I mean, I would just. Encourage people to hear this And

be like, look, you gotta have a lot of sticks in the fire. You gotta be out there. People have to know who you are. There needs to be awareness. Um, so,

JP Mullin: had someone pass four times. Four times.

Jason Yeh: and then invest.

JP Mullin: they're Yeah, and now they're honestly one of our biggest, biggest supporters. Like, it's crazy. Um, so like, you just got to keep, keep pushing sometimes. I mean, I would echo that fact that the no doesn't always mean no in this case. Um, and you know, it might just mean [00:35:00] we're not, it's not the right moment.

You know, you're not, you're not, At the right stage for us, you know, the narrative isn't fitting with our thesis at the moment, but that could change and keep those doors open. Don't ever close those doors because also you never know. Maybe these guys go out and start a new fund and their thesis changes as well.

So like keep a relationship irrespective. I will say this. Um, I think I was, I was having a, um, uh, a podcast or like a quick interview with, um, Michael Houck. I'm not sure if you know, Michael. Um, and he was asking me a little bit about fundraising as well. And I said something along the lines of like, take it personal when they say no, but don't actually take it personal.

Like, like there could be a number of reasons why they pass that has nothing to do with you at all. Now, nothing to do with your business even. I mean, they might like you, they might like your company, but it's just not the right thing for the fund. And there's, you know, who knows why, in many cases, why they end up.

You know, saying no, no, or pass for the time being, but, so don't take it personal in that regard, but take it personal [00:36:00] from the, from the factor of like, I will never forget. Anyone who ever passes, um, I don't hold it against them, but I will absolutely use that as a chip on my shoulder and motivation for the next time.

So that's kind of how I view it. And, um, you know, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't allow them later. Cause obviously if you treat it with respect and like, you know, you're open about it, there's ways to do it properly that are, you know, it's not like being a, just being an ass about it. Um, that also happens, but.

Jason Yeh: You talked, I mean, you're talking a little bit about the nos and the passes and we have like a really positive six months, you know, over the past six months with Mantra, but You talked about having to fundraise during crypto winter, right? I mean, it went from the sexiest thing in the world and maybe being laughed out of rooms or people being like, why the

hell are you still in this space? How haven't you pivoted to the, you know, the next thing. And so I wonder if any, like, noticeably [00:37:00] painful memories come to mind when you think about fundraising in particular, any interactions or parts along the journey that like still kind of, you think back and you're like, Oh my God, that, that was bad.

Yeah.

JP Mullin: Um, no, I will say something, um, slightly, slightly different. I think even now that we're like, it's attractive and it's back and whatever, you still get a lot of nose. Like you could be like, still the most attractive thing out there and you're still going to get nose. So like, just, just be ready for that.

Um, you know, a little bit more on the question. I think the most painful process, most painful part of the process for me was Like really kind of getting strung along for consistent, like documentation and diligence and things of this nature when I know it was. Well intended, but like they didn't even end up coming in at the end.

So, um, because they actually just missed the opportunity. So I think like we didn't have room. [00:38:00] So, you know, it was a little bit of like the, I'd rather actually be a little bit more respectful of the time and just, if you're not going to do it, don't, you know, don't do it now and just let me get on with it.

Cause like stringing it out makes it just like, Oh, next week, you know, that's the, that's the painful part. Um,

Jason Yeh: um, do you remember where you were when the lead partner at Shorooq kind of let you know, like, Hey, we're actually going to do this to you. Was there like a definitive time and place or like a communication that,

JP Mullin: you know, it's funny, like, so kind of how it worked out was at the end of the year, um, like we were having some calls with, with, with these, with these guys. And then I remember I was going out to Dubai a couple times to, you know, finally, um, like meet everyone. And we actually like agreed terms, like the first time we met.

Um, and we kind of stuck to that [00:39:00] through throughout the entire thing. And, and, um, I think they honestly respect me for it. Cause as the market moved and things changed, like I could have definitely repriced, um, significantly and I didn't. I think it's really important to like, kind of stick to stick to your word.

Um, and you know, I saw them as value added partners. So like we wanted to, you know, it's, it's actually my job to make sure that my investors make money in my opinion. Um, I want them to. And, um, when like going through all that stuff, it wasn't ever really like in doubt in my mind for some reason. So I remember after like, maybe after the first week.

Like, I think it maybe went back and forth two times, and I just remember like, think, like knowing that it was going to happen, even if it wasn't really confirmed, and I remember getting back on the plane from Dubai to Hong Kong, and I was just like crying the whole plane ride, um, and, uh, just like happy tears, like, Oh my God, we finally did it.

And we hadn't even done it yet. It's just kind of funny. We're still having to go through all the legal [00:40:00] due diligence, we're still having to go through all the financial due diligence, but I just knew we were

Jason Yeh: that you talked about, you know?

It's like that optimism that just flows through you. That's

awesome. That's a good memory. Um,

JP Mullin: for sure.

Jason Yeh: and of course, like they end up coming in and I think you had a good sense. Having been through equity raises and now token raises, you've definitely seen a lot and you've kind of started adapting your own approach to fundraising. When you talk to founders who are thinking about fundraising, whether or not they're sort of crypto native, like token associated companies, or maybe just more.

Traditional equity based fundraisers. Are there, are there any piece of advice or things that you're like, man, I wish someone had just Help me understand this before I ever went down this path. Any key lessons you'd like sharing?

JP Mullin: Um, it's a good question. I mean, I think,[00:41:00]

I think the, one of the best things that I have always taken into consideration is, Like the ability to play both equity and tokens and kind of optimize for what's working at the time. So like, that's an important kind of construct. Like I, I want to optimize my cap table at the, both the equity level and at the token level, cause there's a different group of investors.

I mean, very different group of investors that are looking for different things. Some can't even invest in tokens and some have no interest in investing in equity. So like being able to optimize for that, tailoring your pitch, like when you're, when you're in my world is really important. Um, and then being able to align.

Like you need to be able to align value accrual at both the token and equity layer, otherwise, you know, people are going to see right through that and they're going to smell bullshit. Um, I would say for any, like, if I have to give advice for anyone who's going to launch a token, Um, as part of a capital raise or, or, you know, part of their business model, like take that [00:42:00] really, really seriously.

Cause you're effectively going public from the minute you launch it. Um, I mean, it's, you're, you're like, you have a value in the market, you're priced, there's a, you know, in some cases, liquid markets, sometimes not as liquid, we're pretty liquid cause we're on Binance, we're on big exchanges. Um, so that's like real money.

Like our token is as good as cash to people. Um, that's an important thing. But at the same time, you also have. It's not like public in the sense of like doing an IPO and all the reporting requirements, but you have basically, you know, thousands of retail, like end users who hold your token. And if the price goes down, like they're saying you're a scam.

And if it goes up, you're the best thing in the world. So like, just be ready for the craziness that that brings and also the responsibility. Um, even if it's not from a, if it's not as regulated as it is in public market, like public securities markets, there is a responsibility to your token holders and your community, and you have to do the right thing.

And I think [00:43:00] crypto does get a bit of a bad rap just because people will launch tokens and founders will just move on. They'll do something. It'll deliver something halfway. Maybe accrual. They'll sell because liquidity is, you can get liquidity, um, pretty quickly and then move on to the next thing. And they made a lot of money and then the community stuff's holding the bag.

And, um, like we could have easily. Left and just done something else, done a new token, done a new project. If you wanted to, like we're four years old now, which is almost an eternity in crypto world. Um, and that's just like, I will, like your name's on a token. My name is on this token. So in this project I will ever be associated with it.

And I take that very, very seriously. So if you're going to be launching anything, like just, you better be definitely serious about that because like it's your reputation on the line.

Jason Yeh: Yeah. And,

And

JP Mullin: the internet does not forget.

Jason Yeh: I was going to actually say, uh, I was lucky enough to have dinner last time you were in the United States with you. And it was just around the time when I had, had like, [00:44:00] Just started, started understanding the dynamics around token fundraisers and how if you're a good storyteller and you can craft things like you can launch a token, you can make money and like, you can walk away and like, why doesn't, Everyone do this.

You know, like,

like why doesn't every founder who's raising a company for a traditional company attach a token and do this? Cause like, I'm like, I could do this. Like I understand the dynamics around storytelling. And this was the thing that you underlined, like triple underlined. You're like.

And I don't think you went into it as in depth.

It's like, yeah, you go public, you're doxxed, people know who you are.

JP Mullin: Yeh.

Jason Yeh: it's a scary, I mean, the internet can be a scary place if, if

they believe you're taking your money. Right. And, um, it's

not something to take lightly. Right.

JP Mullin: Hundred percent. Hundred

Jason Yeh: founders, especially cause I believe founders have the best deal flow.

You, y'all know. other founders who [00:45:00] are in the grind and you can kind of see yourself in other founders and you know who has the it factor more so than people that are further away from it, investors even.

So, love asking, are there any founders in your, in your Orbit ecosystem names, either company names or or founder names that we should be, you know, keeping tabs on?

JP Mullin: Yeah, so it's funny. Um, I, uh, I think my skillset, particularly like the, my general optimism for life and, and, and things, I was actually reading like a, uh, A Mark Randolph tweet, um, like one of the founders of Netflix. And, um, he was saying that same, same thing, like super optimistic, but it has actually made him not a great investor because he likes everything.

I don't actually think I'm a great investor from that perspective. Like I will generally look at stuff and I'll be like, wow, I'm like, this is cool. Like they can make this work. Um, and I naturally give people the benefit of the doubt from that perspective. So I don't know if maybe as a turning of an eye from that [00:46:00] perspective.

Um, But, um, one, one project that I think is pretty cool run by a couple of young guys, um, and they just raised a big round. They just raised like 38 bucks. Um, I think it was led by Polly Chen called Movement Labs. Um, so they're basically building like a, this like modular, um, layer two solution that's bringing, um, move, move, like movement is a coding language move, um, based out of, uh, like founded, like by a lot of ex Facebook and meta, uh, devs, um, so move is this kind of interesting coding language that's newer.

And they have this new virtual machine called MoveVM that they're bringing to the Ethereum virtual machine. Um, so it's like this kind of interesting, uh, Ability to bring, move coding language into Ethereum ecosystem, which I think is cool and they've obviously raised a ton of money. They're like, I want to say they're like 22 and 26 or something like that.

Um, I met them actually like right, right when we started to the last in February, um, in, in Los Altos [00:47:00] and, um, super, um, super polished young kids. Like they, they're, they're legit. They're hustlers, um, Rushi and Cooper and Torab and the team. Um, they're really, really legit. I think they're one of the bigger rounds has been announced this year as well.

I

Jason Yeh: like, sounds like they've got a great story too, you know, which, which,

JP Mullin: They're cool. They got, they're, they're, they're cool, cool guys.

Jason Yeh: That was my conversation with John Patrick Mullen, otherwise known as JP. Co-founder and CEO of mantra. Bringing the world's financial ecosystem on chain. I hope hearing JP story. It reminds you of the power of staying the course. Even when the market and timing aren't in your favor. When we come back, we'll hear my producer pages, thoughts on our conversation.

​

Paige Randall: [00:48:00] All right. [00:49:00] Hello, Jason. This was a challenging episode terminology wise, because as you know, I know nothing about blockchain or crypto or any of that, but it was also cool because we kind of know a little bit more about JP's story, so it was cool to hear the whole thing kind of behind the scenes.

Jason Yeh: Yeah, I wouldn't feel too bad about the challenging terminology. It's like, as soon as we feel like we've gotten you comfortable all of a sudden, we're like crypto, web3, blockchain. Um, I'll just say this. It's like as similar as some of the fundraising motions are in that world. Uh, there are a ton of differences. The terminology is new to a lot of people. So don't feel too bad.

Paige Randall: Yeah, and I was gonna say though, is like, the theme and the things that he shared about the process of his fundraise was all the same. Um, even though he was dealing with like a little bit of a different world. So, um, the first thing that I kind of wanted to talk about was that he raised the question, This round, [00:50:00] this 11 million venture round from a firm in Dubai.

And I don't know if it's any different, but I've heard in, um, in the past that, you know, UK firms might be a little bit slower in their processes or are these different things that, um, firms do depending on where they are. So I was curious if there's any like differences that you know of between the U S and Dubai.

Okay,

Jason Yeh: not super, super experienced. Uh, but, you know, You know, Sovereign Wealth Fund, which is what he was raising fund from, I believe, yeh. Um, It's a, it's a state owned entity. So it's like a fund that is investing the money from a country. And a lot of times this happens because there are certain countries out there, like notable ones are Dubai and Norway who have tons of revenue, right?

You know, revenue is like. Tax revenue, or because the state owns a natural [00:51:00] resource, like Norway's super natural resource rich, Dubai's super natural resource rich. They are making all this garbage. Money and it's all coming from one source a lot of times from what I know these sovereign wealth funds will be heavily and highly aggressive towards technology because they're trying to shift the mix of Where their country's revenue and wealth comes from they don't want it all to be pointed in one direction So in some ways it could it could say that These funds will be a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more forward thinking when it comes to new technologies. Um, there are a variety of other things that could be different. Um, and I don't feel super comfortable speaking, but what I would say is like, as always, whenever I'm telling people to get a little bit smarter about who they're raising capital from, kind of want to dig into what their motivations are. Um, what are the main things that they're trying to get done? And it could come up with things [00:52:00] that will indicate that they might behave a little bit more differently than what you're used to in your home country.

Paige Randall: that's great because that was going to be my next question is what is a sovereign wealth fund? Thank you. That helps. Um, he did say, by the way, too, that, like, the due diligence was a lot more intense. So that's why I was curious as well. And all of what you said makes sense to that point. The funny thing that I also wanted to bring up, because back to my point of like, this really was just a regular round with all this crazy stuff that ends up coming together in the weirdest ways, so I really like noticed when he mentioned how he got introduced to this fun, and he was saying that like, He got introduced by a friend that he's known for forever that he plays fantasy football with, and he was like, Hey, I know you do this thing.

You should talk to this guy. And, um, like, I just think that's so bizarre, like how you could just, and I, you talk about this a lot too. There's people in your network that you would just [00:53:00] never assume, like maybe they're just your casual friend, but they know someone who could potentially be. The person who connects you with firm that you close with.

Jason Yeh: Yeah. It's totally true. And, um, yeah, I just think like it says a lot. So the first thing you just said is worth calling out, which is like, you just don't know who's connected to whom. Right. And because of that, you have to be really aggressive at finding connections because that's important. Um, Like, I think there can be this perception of the sophistication of investing and you know, why all these things happen.

But like, at the end of the day, business and investing is all related to trust. And so, any additional trust or any connection that you can get that Inserts you into a fundraising process with additional credibility or additional belief and trust is going to be valuable for you. [00:54:00] It might just be some guy that you play fantasy football with or a person you sat next to in stats class in undergrad, but that is still a meaningful difference than being a complete stranger. Um, so, yeah, it was, it was very cool for him to share that and um, I think the last thing I'd say is like, yeah, it does speak to how important it is to continue to build network in the least cringy way possible, which is just meeting people, being a good hang, being a good person, trying to help people.

Paige Randall: Yeah, and clearly, I mean, I hope if they're friends he thinks he's a quality person, but clearly he thought he was a quality enough person to be like, I think, like, like, because when you do, you give an intro, you're kind of vouching for them. So,

Jason Yeh: You're

investing social capital, you're putting your name on the line, for sure.

Paige Randall: yeah. And, I mean, the bummer was, though, in this case, the first time around, they actually passed. Like, this was like 11 months before they closed the round, they were [00:55:00] like, eh, not it. And then the funniest thing that I wanted to bring up was that And I feel like this always happens. He had been talking to another VC firm or whatever firm it was, um, 11 months later, and was just like, Hey, by the way, he reached back out to, um, uh, Saruk Partners, and he was like, by the way, You're not the only person that's, am I interested or said something was just like, by the way, there's someone that's interested.

And immediately they got back and hopped on a call and got back into this, this momentum, which is just goes to show because, and I wanted to mention this because I feel like we hear a lot of different founder stories and. Usually when someone gets interested, I feel like the founder's immediate reaction is to focus and dial in on that one firm of interest.

Whereas what JP did, which is really smart, he was like, let me literally reach out to the different people that I have talked to just to be like, Hey, there's someone interested, which is [00:56:00] like, it feels almost wrong. Cause you just want to focus on that one person, but it's genius because you know how, I mean, you know how investors work.

They're like FOMO I'm in.

Jason Yeh: Yeah. It's, it's a social proof. It's, it's FOMO. It's getting validation from the market. It's, it's, showing a lack of interest, you know, when the target shows a lack of interest in you or when the founder shows a lack of interest in you, it's likely because they have other options and things that have other options are more valuable. Things that have only one option, which is you doesn't don't feel as valuable. And so, yeah, I think JP knew what he was doing. Um, and then rewind it a little bit. I think it's really important for people to hear this message, which I'm I know we've shared a little bit, um, which is like a no now doesn't mean no forever. And taking a no, like, respectfully, Maintaining a good relationship and also being like, you [00:57:00] know, if, if it's a no now, like whatever, I'm going to continue executing, um, putting up numbers, pushing my company forward and keep you in the loop in the right way. And I think that vibe means that when someone hears a little bit more about you down the road, other people are interested.

They're ready to re engage. There's no There's no ill will. There's no some feelings of weirdness. There's more of a feeling like, Oh, I, you know, I have an inside track here. I know more about this company. I've been tracking this company. I actually want to do this deal.

Paige Randall: Yeah. And JP did mention he's like, you never know exactly why a firm is going to pass. Like it might be like something so specific or like it's out of someone's control that wants to do the deal. Like, and then you don't know how things will change in the future. Maybe that partner goes to another firm at like, you don't know how things are going to happen.

Um, and I also wanted to call out too, like this wasn't, Just like a breeze, you know, I mean the [00:58:00] past few years in the crypto market, which, which I do know is it's been bumpy. And like, as JP mentioned, when he was trying to raise back in 2022, Luna crashed, everyone was like, turned their eyes away from any deal remotely related.

And then when things were starting to get better, FTX crashed. And, and JP was sharing, he was like. I had, we had to carry that for like two years, two years. Like we had to bootstrap and figure stuff out. And I mean, if that doesn't show patience, I don't know. I don't know what does. Cause

Jason Yeh: Yeah. And you know, and the strong survive and especially in crypto for the ones to be able to weather the storm of the bear market and make it to the other side, like it seems like he has means that he gets to be. One of those companies that have gone through it, that has raised capital on it, and now, you know, entering into a pretty crazy bull market, um, saw that, and this is already going to be outdated by the time we publish, but you know, [00:59:00] Bitcoin hitting 107, 000, um, not a small thing, for sure.

Paige Randall: I mean,

I'm out. That's yeah. That's, that's all I, that's all I got.

Jason Yeh: that was a great, that was a great chat. I can't wait for future debriefs around crypto and other random things that get your head spinning.

Paige Randall: Yes. Hopefully I will know more by then.

Jason Yeh: ​

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